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Holy Music?
Responding to Chassidic Rap, a commentor wrote: "I'm trying to leave Mitzrayim and on the journey to Har Sinai I've got to hear Mitzrayim Boom-Boxing with a handful of Hasidic lyrics thrown into the mix? I don't buy into the "let's world it up and dumb it down" approach to outreach. I'm just too Old School for this stuff."
I responded: That's a classic argument. Yet style & music arguments seem to happen every generation. Shlomo Carlbach, zt"l, was newfangled non-chassunus that the older couldn't stomach. So was Avraham Fried and Mordechai Ben David when they came out. Now all 3 are "older" music. The young always feel a need to differentiate themselves - I did, and I recognize they do too.
And commentor Reuben Ezra added these thoughts:
So what would you all say about Menachem Herman, Piamenta, Shlomo Carlebach obm, Matisyahu, and Daniel Zamir? Is their music kosher because its Rock, Jazz, Reggae etc? As long as it's not a hip-hop sound it's ok with you?
Let me tell you something...there are thousands upon thousands of young and not so young Jews who thoroughly enjoy Hip-Hop music. To a great extent, they love the beat-style that it presents. Much of this is because of the times in which they grew up, or simply because it sounds good and can bring simcha. Unfortunately, there is a lot of negative lyrics associated with much of hiphop, same for rock & roll & R&B music. If you can take this art form and transform it into something positive that these individuals can get motivated by to serve Hashem (which is being done) or give them an option besides the negative stuff out there, then a tremendous tikkun has taken place.
Tons of individuals became observant from Shlomo Carlebach's music, and the same thing is happening now with new artists like Matisyahu. You have no idea how many people, especially baal teshuvas find strength and motivation in positive hiphop music. This is especially when from day to day they may be tempted to listen to the stuff with negative lyrics because they find a lack of options on the good side. It gives strength to these individuals to know that Jews don't have to be clones, but they can use their own talents to bring light by using them in a good way. Did you listen to the lyrics in the video?
Here, read them.
You're not going to be successful in assur-ing the internet, so you must make ways to use it for holiness. You won't succeed at making music assur and suppressing the desire for people to hear what they enjoy, so you must use music for holiness too. The same for TV, DVDs, movies, and all material creations within the realm of klipah nogah (things that can be elevated).
So if you're too "Old School", then this is obviously not for you. Listen to the kosher things you enjoy. But just because you don't understand the perspective of another generation doesn't mean you're correct and they're rebellious. There is a 13 yr old Jewish kid I know who listens to hardcore music because he loves the beats, and who can stop him if his parents have not? Do we leave him in the wind? If we can offer him the quality sound, but with words to put his mind in the right frame instead of degrading women, talking about crimes, etc, then would you have artists not do so?...and he continue to destroy his young neshama?? I hope not.
It's impossible that everyone will agree with my comment, but like Akiva said, even Carlebach and A. Fried faced these criticisms. Like the (Lubavitcher) Rebbe said, you know you're doing something good if there is opposition.
25 comments:
You're assuming there's nothing inherently negative in hip hop/reggae.
It's a little bit ridiculous (not to mention insulting to the artists) to compare Carlebach, MBD and Fried to Matisyahu, Nosson Zand and "Describe."
As an illustration, think about the mood this music puts you in. Think about the average concert from the two groups of artists mentioned above. Which do you think that kids should attend? Which do you think chasidim should attend, leaving aside the issue of mixed concerts [which is no small inyan]?
This music is grub; it's a stretch to make an argument otherwise. If you can't answer without any hesitation that there is no difference than you acknowledge there's a treife taam in these forms of music - not just the words. And if you're dealing with something treif and making it "not so bad" than this is already gray territory [at best] that nobody should be involved in. Certainly not those whom the mishna describes as lifnei mishuras hadin. Even with a few divrei kedusha.
I don't hesitate to answer. Your argument is empty. The treif tam is only in your own mouth, not those of the thousands of OBSERVANT people who are inspired by the music, and even let their small children listen and dance to it. You are one SUJECTIVE individual amongst many who totally disagree with you. You offer no reason why HipHop/Reggae is "inherently" negative besides the fact that YOU don't like it. What don't you like...the kick, the tap, the horns?? What mood does it put me in? I'll tell you. And this is on behalf of MANY. There have been rough days when I have listened to positive Jewish Hip Hop/Reggae/Rock and it energized me to keep pushing because HKB"H is in control. There are tons of people who share this sentiment whether you like it or not. What is grub to you is powerful for them. Which concert should they attend? They should attend the one that has the inspirational music they enjoy. They should listen to the music that touches there Neshama positively. And that is what these people are doing. Many chassidism have attended such concerts. These artists have even performed in Chabad houses and religious venues at request. And why did you not mention Piamenta? Do you feel the same about him, because he has done shows with these artists before. YOUR argument is the one that is stretched, and really has no substance or sense. And what do you mean even "a FEW divrei kedusha"?? You obviously have not listened to any of Nosson, Describe, Y-Love,or Matisyahu's lyrics at length. Look up the lyrics yourself...filled with goodness and messages of refinement, & Torah, that has actually changed lives. "I had to get my mind right cuz I was living in the dark, now i'm living for the light that you can get from a spark"- Nosson Zand or "Materialistic think its gonna reign perpetual, destruction comes eventual, we're trying to rise for festivals" - Y-Love. I've seen it first hand how this music has changed people. You've done nothing but prove you don't like this genre of music, which is your welcome opinion. If you could ask Carlebach obm, Av. Fried, etc. if comparing them to other artists who are trying to bring holiness where & to whom no one else can or will attempt to do it is an insult, I bet you they'd say that its not. No need to discuss this further. We won't agree. We shall agree to disagree.
Menashe -
People said the same about MBD's music when it came out. One of his early hit tunes was based on a German Rock song.
It's just what you know compared to what you don't. I happen to love kosher sushi, many think Japanese style rice and raw fish is just disgusting. But not liking it doesn't treif it.
i was very inspired by 'yesh rak hakodesh baruch Hu' from ushpizin.
but that was an extremely rare example.
it's hard enough to express spirituality in music. why create more density with pop music textures (read synthesizers, boomy bass etc) that makes it harder for the finer aspects of the soul to experience?
people are so busy trying to defend their particular musical tastes.
i've been around way too long and heard way too much music.
ask the masters: they'll tell you.
simpler is better, natural is better (meaning w/o electronics), and nothing, nothing, beats a devotional melody from the soul.
all the other stuff that people 'add into the mix' to make it 'hip' are missing the whole point.
it even warns us in our torah to be careful not, repeat not, to imitate the ways/rituals of the caananites.
true, jewish people have borrowed musical forms from other cultures and uplifted them to the sacred; however, one must be very careful with this. ask any hassidic rebbe.
read reb nachman.
the soul is a much more fine tuned instrument than just any pop music form can simply connect with.
And that song WAS and remains treif! But I think you missed my main point. There's obviously nothing treif about kosher sushi.
That's not the case with music genre. And while there are obviously many that agree with you, there are at least equally many that agree with me that hip hop/reggae is grub music.
So no, I don't think it's kosher for anybody. But of course my opinion remains mine.
B"H
Anonymous 4:53 AM, with all due respect, yours too is a subjective argument based on your tastes. Did a Jew create the telephone? Or the car(actually an anti-semite did if I am correct)? No. But you use all of these things for a good purpose which essentially elevates the object. And we don't consider it as following the ways of the Canaanites. If you wanna argue what's natural, using the Pony Express would also be more "natural" than email. But you use that don't you? Natural is better is your own perspective on this issue. Contrary to your statements, many would rather listen to digital music than live band, and they do just that. Your opinion of who the "masters" are is also going to be different than others. Reality has already proven that your statement that "the soul is a much more fine tuned instrument than just any pop music form can simply connect with" must be incorrect. Once again, the music has affected many positively and in beautiful ways, bringing them towards increased Avodat Hashem. Some holy niggunim were taken from peasants singing in bars. There's a big concept in Kabbalah/Chassidus that what is the lowliest in this world, has the loftiest source in the upper realms. That's why malchut, the lowest of the sefirot is actually connected to the supreme level of Keter (often called Keter Malchut). This is why food (which could be considered most grub) actually vitalizes body and soul. You eat it, elevate to its source, and feel energized because its like connecting you back to your higher source for that time. Therefore, it's possible to take a synthesizer or a 808 bass and use them to create a song that inspires the soul. Show me where it says with clarity that a synthesizer boom or tick is any different and is in the realm of klipah tameit (things that cannot be elevated now). You can find the similar things as the food upliftment happening with this music. This is not about defending musical taste, as I enjoy many varieties of music, its about the emet of its positive power. Your experince and view is just that...YOURS. But so is mine. Fair enough.
A QUOTE FROM THE LUBAVITCHER REBBE SHLITA ZSL'
"My comment is based on the saying by the Baal Shem Tov—which my father-in-law, the Rebbe, would often repeat—that a person can derive a lesson in the service of G-d from everything he sees or hears about. The primary talent of an artist is his ability to step away from the externalities of the thing and, disregarding its outer form, gaze into its core and perceive its essence, and to be able to convey this in his painting. Thus the object is revealed as it has never before been seen, since its inner content was obscured by secondary things. The artist exposes the essence of the thing he portrays, causing the one who looks at the painting to perceive it in another, truer light, and to realize that his prior perception was deficient. And this is one of the foundations of man’s service of his Creator. As we know from the Torah—and particularly from the teaching of Chasidism—the entirety of creation stems from the word of G-d, and the word of G-d is what brings it into existence and sustains it in every moment of time. It is only that the divine power of tzimtzum (constriction) holds the divine life-force in a state of concealment and obscurity, and we perceive only its outer form (i.e., the physical reality)."
As a teenager who Listens to this music and is a huge fan. Would you rather have me listing to the r&b rap and reggae that isn't jewish. There is so much negatively found in the non jewish world. Suddenly when ppl offer a positive you turn your back on it. Being iv'e been hurt by the yeshiva sytum for me this helps gratly. Its ppl like Y-love, Jewda, Prodezra, and Describre. Who are making this stuff kosher and psotive.Sure many ppl don't like the sound AND THAT"S OK. But just bc you don't like it dosn't mean you have to say its treif. The songs they come out with keep me from running around in pants and short sleeved shirts with low neck lines.
All their doing is what the rebbe said. You used to rap or want to just make it kosher find a positive way and they have. I really love this music and it really helps me it's grate to have a frum kosher alternative to the music i like insted of whats really treif like akon.
Anonymous of 7:53,
The Conservative movement makes the same exact argument. They say: there's a gap between the people and the Torah, so let's bring the Torah down to the level of the people, ie. permit driving to shul on shabbos. I'm obviously not equating being mechalel shabbos to listening to this stuff. It's not a violation of halacha technically but then again neither is drinking cholov stam according to some opinions but no Rav would tell you it's a good thing to do. But the argument is basically the same. Ah, you say you're going to listen to that kind of music anyway so it pays to create a "jewish" or "chassidic" version. Torah doesn't work that way. Be strong and listen to kosher music.
Reuven,
Not to open up another can of worms but I think you're a little confused. I can understand shlita [although I have issues with publicizing such things] and I can understand zatzal. But both?
Lol. Not a meshichist statement. I simply copy and pasted the 'Shlita' with the whole statement and added Zatzal quickly without thinking...my bad.
I really dont see how the music of the likes of Matisyahu and TaShma can viewed as problematic. They have taken all the obscene elements out of rap and given the youth a real positive alternative. By contrast they make all the other rap artists seem unattractive! And this is bad??? I say strength to them!!!
People. deal with the 'ikar' not the tefel.
I can't understand what's wrong with Jewish hip-hop or Jewish rock.
I suppose that the sitra achra always tried to prevent anything that might increase kidush Hashem. I'm sure it was around when Jewish music started using violins, when Chazonim first attempted to emulate operas, so it's a no brainer when the sitra achra tries to incite agaisnt adopting drums and base to publicize HKB"H's name.
Ooops! That German Rock song was a NAZI song.
So says this blog (and as I heard from a Rabbi in discussion of it) Blog in Dm
Avraham Fried was under the Brocha and watchful eye of The Rebbe when he began singing; he has asked permission of The Rebbe.
About the other 'unusual' sounds that many listen to, it has to do with their minds. If their minds are influenced by current trends and/or 'a little smokin' on the side, they may need this stimulation to kick-start their brain synapses. There is more to this than meets the ear.
And about one particular chassidishe performer par excellance, he is a tremendous yid, always doing chessed, giving money away, helping when asked, and a truly unique neshoma. He has always been so wired, and has great support from his wife and her family, and should be appreciated for attracting young Jewish boys to him, to be influenced by his chessed, than to be pulled in an entirely different direction.
We live in very unusual times, but the sun keeps breaking thru the clouds, and Moshiach will be here soon.
Just came across this (a little related to music):
Rav Shlomo Zalman Aurbach, OB"M told [RYS] that the reason of the high rate of assimilation is because as of the kulos & heterim of de americaner Rabonim in "bishul-akum und Yayin-nesech" halachos- I asked perhaps the Heteirim are acceptable? Reb Shlomo Zalman, responded it can't be-As CHAZAL said........otherwise we wouldn't have the high rate of assimilation.
He said "if we eliminate a bishul akum in New York, it will eliminate an intermarriage in Pariz.
One Commenter Replied: Timtum Halev is certainly something that shouldn't be taken lightly. After decades of eating OU endorsed cholov treife, insects and Rubashkin products, is there any wonder that we have all these assimilation issues? After decades of enabling and protecting child molesters, is there any wonder why we have so many "kids at risk"? Instead they blame it all on Lipa!
Let's make something very clear. A Rav's psak, even if you don't like it, as long as its in the framework of Torah and Shulchan Aruch, is halacha lmaisa.
OU-D is kosher. Rubashkin is kosher [when was that even one of the accusations?]. Not holding by it is different from saying it is treif.
RYS is a Rabbi and an authority on Kashrus.
The "COMMENTER" made those remarks of "OU endorsed cholov treife." He was explaining that some are blaming the wrong 'people' for some of our generations problems i.e., misguided tzidkus.
I would just add that Rav Shlomo Zalman Aurbach, OB"M, is more than qualified to make those statements. and was also a POSEK.
hey guys, I never posted anything on these boards but I thought I should say something given that I am a baal tshuva that would have NEVER listened to any Jewish music had it not been for Matisyahu's first album, "shake off the dust"
Matis' music served as a real gateway for me into other forms of jewish music and I am forever grateful to him for opening me up.
however, i have since questioned how "jewish" this music truly is. While it served as a gateway for me into the jewish music world, does it serve as a parallel gateway for FFB's into secular rap?
Another point is the "feeling" that you get when you listen to this music. alot of this music is VERY angry sounding. I never noticed this until I went to a yosef karduner concert. After a karduner concert, you literally feel elevated-like you had just heard the angels themselves- ready to serve hashem. Can a jew honestly feel the same way after listening to nosson zand scream into a mic for 40 minutes? I really don't know. Personally, no matter how much i love this music, I know which music I can really on for it's positive inspiration. But then again, I am sure that some are positively inspired by A Fried while I simply can't wait to shut off the radio.
I think an important question comes into play:WHAT MAKES MUSIC "JEWISH"? If my Moroccan grandfather ever sang his music to your Polish grandfather he would have surely been met with confused looks. My wife believes that music is made Jewish by the lyrics. I saw what she was saying when Matis' lyrics suddenly become not so obviously jewish when he signed onto sony.
Something to note- from a spiritual level, we believe that music comes from the neshama of the musician. if that is true, then jewish hip-hopers are most definetely affected by the neshamas of non-jewish rappers since it is all too oobvious that they continue to listen to secular music for inspiration.
More importantly, is this an issue that the frum world wants to expend so much time and energy on- don't we have bigger problems?
by "natural" i meant w/o synthesizers.
it's not just a question of personal taste. maybe personal distaste.
i've heard too much music that is good, bad and ugly.
and most rap/hiphop and pop is the latter two.
all the electronics and 'beats' take away from the finer vibrations that really attune the soul.
this is not an opinion, but a fact.
That's hilarious. Find me a source that proves thats a "fact". And don't tell me Reb Nachman ztzl. They didn't have synthesizers in his time. Sorry my friend. Nice try...that's your own soul's OPINION.
By the way, a true Breslov Rabbi told me today how powerful the music was. And one very well versed in Reb Nachman's teachings. So you may wanna look somewhere else for a source. Peace
It's worth noting 2 Lubavitcher niggunim are Russian peasant drinking songs. And one is a derivation of the French National Anthem!
Yet they touch the soul and we consider them very holy.
Because that's what we do, we upgrade the vessels of this world to holiness!
A REBBE is capable of being mvarer something so low as a peasant drinking song. Maybe even some select chasidim.
But that's not even what we're dicussing. What's being suggested is that hip hop as a genre is kosher for the neshama. SOMEHOW I can easily imagine the Rebbe approving of Fried and MBD but I can't imagine him or any other tzadik bopping their head to the beats of hip hop and r&b.
Avraham Fried and MBD are wonderful musicians and eirlicha yidden. I've had the opportunity to meet AF personally.
Yet the beats and tunes on some of their songs are very modern, pop and rock like. I can't see a rebbe standing up and singing 'MOSHIACH MOSHIACH MOSHIACH, ay ya ya ya ya ya' - yet we all call that music kosher.
There are halachic discussions in the past if it's permissible to get near or in the entry of a church to listen to, and adapt, the gospel music for Jewish purposes!
I, for one, fail to understand the rush to assur and declare treif. Give these artists and chassidim a chance to elevate their music and reach those who would enjoy it.
BTW, those in Meah Shearim pushing for a Music Chashgacha absolutely would assur AF and MBD. Chassonus only.
"But just because you don't understand the perspective of another generation doesn't mean you're correct and they're rebellious."
Okay, this is the Old School poster here. Heaven forbid that I should think that someone is wrong and that I'm right. All I said was that "I don't buy into the 'let's world it up and dumb it down' approach to outreach."
Just because I don't buy into it as a personal choice based upon my bias doesn't make me right or superior! Heaven forbid!
I agreed with R. Akiva's points in full. As I stated in a follow-up post, this music isn't my cup of tea. That's all. I'm not about to go all mussar on someone for self-expression or outreach. I recognize that I'm Old School and will just hang out with the Old Timers.
Perhaps my use of "Mitzrayim Boom-Boxing" struck a nerve. I repent and I beg forgiveness from all those who took offense and/or were harmed by my poor choice of words, including the artists themselves. Would "secular music style" have been less offensive? Either way, I apologize.
Shalom Aleichem!
About that French National Anthem, The Rebbe sang the whole thing in 770 and CHANGED a few words to bring about a rectification. Those exact changes I don't know, but maybe a Chabadnik who contributes to your blog might know.
KolTuv
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